Braking for Turn 1

[Rik Walker]

Paraphrasing what I wrote in another thread:

When picking your braking point for turn 1 it's not enough to brake in time to easily make the corner if there was no other traffic or just a couple of cars ahead. When following other cars you have to brake earlier to allow for what they might be doing. Heading for T1 from further back on the grid that is a lot earlier. You probably need to brake at least one car length earlier for each row back you are on the grid (and quite possibly double that unless you have supreme confidence in the other drivers). You're not just braking to make the corner, you're braking to make the corner and avoid the other cars who are also braking for the corner and trying to avoid the other cars. A small error by a car ahead can result in those further back needing to take severe avoiding action and they have to slow early enough to be able to do this and get through the turn safely.

Discuss.

[DaveH]

Hi
I agree with everything Rik has stated as regards to T1 on the first lap. There are some that would rather do away with a standing start and the traumatic entry to T1 and adopt the American rolling start. The rolling start works, but it is also a mind numbingly boring way to start a race IMHO. The run up to T1 from a standing start on relatively cold tyres and brakes amongst a raging cauldron of other cars is guaranteed to get the adrenalin pumping (who needs DICKS!).

The degree of danger at T1 is dependant on where you are on the grid, the front runners have open airspace in front and only have to worry about being rear ended... so being as quick into T1 as there car and driving skill will allow reduces the chance of a rear end shunt from behind.

The mid pack qualifiers have it the worst IMO, as they have the danger of rear ending someone in front and also being rear ended from behind! Following this train of thought, the guys holding up the rear tend to get an overall view of what’s going on ahead of them and if they hang back a bit can hopefully wheedle there way through any mishaps! They also don't have the problem of being rear ended.

As many have stated, extreme caution and skill is required to negotiate T1... the approach you take is dependant on where you are in the grid as stated above. The problem is; that many drivers see T1 as an opportunity to gain a few positions even at the risk of ruining there own and others races! It is a difficult judgment... if you are over cautious; you will get overhauled by more adventurous (dangerous) drivers and lose places.

For all the drama, occasional carnage, tears and recriminations of the standing start and T1... I would not change it for a moment! We just all have to become more skilled at doing it... I practice this against the A1 cars by sticking the difficulty, aggressiveness and damage up to max and keep trying to negotiate T1 unscathed.

DaveH (why use twenty words when a hunderd will do! )

[Kat]

I agree with all that's said above.

It's also not as if you can't gain places even if cautious. You might for instance be able to spot a 'free' line through turn one that allows you to gain placed. But at the end of the day Turn 1 Lap 1 is about surviving unscathed not winning the race.

The main thing people have to consider, IMO, is that they need to give THEMSELVES space and time to manouver. If they're braking about 50% early ( so 225m instead of 150m ) they are giving themselves a chance to avoid, for example, someone losing it on the grass and spinning accross the track.

Brake at a more normal point and you don't have any margin to avoid a problem as you are braking at 100%.

Even being cautious doesn't mean lost places. Case in point was a 675 race I ran in a few weeks ago. I braked early for T1 but realised the guys to the left ( I was right ) were braking more cautiously so I rolled off the brake before reapplying, smoothly outbraking 3 cars to my left and taking the lead of the race. Those who've seen the vid will recall I got hit in the corner but that was the erstwhile leader being agressive not a fault with the manoveur.

i.e. brake early and you give yourself time and space to manoveur and adjust.

[Corrado Toxiri]

In theory, I cannot agree more on Rik's post.

In practice, it's really disappointing to apply all this "safety rule", stay away from trouble and then find yourself:

1) Outbraked by the ones who took a risk, or
2) Punted from behind by someone who found you're too slow

Bottom line: until this rule is not widely accepted by all and/or enforced by the stewards, the problem won't be solved, IMHO.

But after all, it's the same in real life

[Kat]

In theory, I cannot agree more on Rik's post.

In practice, it's really disappointing to apply all this "safety rule", stay away from trouble and then find yourself:

1) Outbraked by the ones who took a risk, or
2) Punted from behind by someone who found you're too slow

Bottom line: until this rule is not widely accepted by all and/or enforced by the stewards, the problem won't be solved, IMHO.

But after all, it's the same in real life

Well it IS enforced by the stewards. The fact that if a driver causes an accident they are penalised on their licence means that there is an onus on the driver to ensure they drive clean on lap one.

[Max Gallo]

For what i have seen until last race my idea in D2 is that the common culture is that driver must gain positions at the race start at any cost or that if it is slow at start can be overtaken by many cars.

For someone can be reasonable to be agressive at race start at risk to have an accident , for me not , i prefer to have less risk because the time invested in practice, i prefer to have an entire race fights instead that fight at race start.

Incidents may happen for many reasons but sometime drivers are guilty.

IMHO punishments are not well balanced, the race start and 1 lap punishments should be more hard to have effect.

For example i prefer to invert qualy illegal lap punishment with 5 points for accident:

If you are guilty at race start ruining other drivers race, next race you will start from pitlane.
I think that a rule like that maybe helps the driver to be more careful in future

Max

[Kat]

If you are guilty at race start ruining other drivers race, next race you will start from pitlane.
I think that a rule like that maybe helps to be more careful

Max

Actually that's not a terrible idea, but only maybe for 10 point penalties.

If you cause a 10 point incedent you get to start next race from pitlane. Do an illegal qualifying lap you get 10 points on the licence. Seems fair to me. ( in my report I suggested a drive through for illegal Q laps but I think points penalties is fair ).

[Martin Cooper]

in D2 is that the common culture is that driver must gain positions at the race start at any cost

I think it's fair to try & make up places at the start, if I can safely then I will. Getting a better start off the grid is as much a part of the race as being able to drive the rest of the race faster than your opponent.

From the replay I felt what made the D2 T1 incident worse was cars cutting in, onto the racing line, too quickly & late into the braking zone. Overtaking & sticking your car on someones nose too quickly is just asking for trouble anytime but especially L1 T1.

[Rouke]

i agree with most what has been said but the discussion about different penalty's is a troublesome one.

Max suggests a pitlane start when someone ruins someone elses start.

How do you measure this?
When can you decide that someone braked too late whilst it could well be that the guy in front braked too early?
The harmonica-effect is important too, the Stewards had a hard job deciding whome was wrong in the Long Beach race, entering T1. at first it seemed the front runners (whome had the initial accident) where to blame but it turned out the problem came all the way from the back of the grid.

or -for example- pole sitter brakes too early and the harmonica effect makes that the last two drivers on the grid have an accident.

This is all monitored by the Stewards of course but how does one regulate this on forehand?

Keep in mind that regulating issues like this can have very negative effects on our racing.
over-regulate it -for example- and you might end up with a rule of no-overtaking at T1 at all.
And pretty soon the fun end exitement is gone.


I have passed many cars at the start in previous seasons, specialy in F3.
last season i made so many accidents that i had to force myself to be more carefull.
as an effect i get passed at the starts more often then i would like.

now i "could" think, ok, cars passing me at the start, screw it, i'm gonna be more agressive again. wich brings me back to square one.
thats one of the problems we have to deal with i think.

personaly i would prefere to come out of T1 in the same position as i qualified. this makes sure i have an entire race to look forward to because thats what gives me the most exitement.

the most important mindset we collectively should embrase is eagerness to survive T1 (and lap1) as a pack. if that means you lose a position so be it, chances are you will gain one the next race.

[Paul Langford]

Keep in mind that regulating issues like this can have very negative effects on our racing.
over-regulate it -for example- and you might end up with a rule of no-overtaking at T1 at all.
And pretty soon the fun end exitement is gone.


the most important mindset we collectively should embrase is eagerness to survive T1 (and lap1) as a pack. if that means you lose a position so be it, chances are you will gain one the next race.

I agree with that, its an instinct thing the start of a race ....I have been either quite lucky for the last 15 or so races or I have learned something about race starts and I think its about abandoning albeit temporarily everthing you have learned about T1 /racing line/optimal speed etc... because when there's 20 of you trying to negotiate it at the same time that all goes out the window and you have to trust your instincts and assume there are cars on either side of you all the way down to T1 ..I try to brake a bit sooner than normal but not as hard as I allways get ready for the thump from behind..... but usually if i'm predictable no-one hits me up the arse, but also lets not forget that its a race, and we are racing, and accidents will happen as in real life... so i think penaltys for T1 incidents would be unfair

[Kat]

How do you measure this?
When can you decide that someone braked too late whilst it could well be that the guy in front braked too early?
The harmonica-effect is important too, the Stewards had a hard job deciding whome was wrong in the Long Beach race, entering T1. at first it seemed the front runners (whome had the initial accident) where to blame but it turned out the problem came all the way from the back of the grid.

I think the stewards have been VERY fair on this front. If we say only those who cause a 10 point, lap one, turn one, offence start from the pitlane then you'd be pretty much guaranteed to be at fault.

[Max Gallo]

Keep in mind that regulating issues like this can have very negative effects on our racing.
over-regulate it -for example- and you might end up with a rule of no-overtaking at T1 at all.
And pretty soon the fun end exitement is gone.

I don't agree because the race is 30 or more laps long, the fun is not only the race start.

[Rouke]

i agree Max and in all honesty personaly i would probably be prepared to regulate our starts in favour of our racing if it would benefite all drivers in the long run.

But i also have to agree with:

Martin:
Getting a better start off the grid is as much a part of the race as being able to drive the rest of the race faster than your opponent.

and

Dave:
For all the drama, occasional carnage, tears and recriminations of the standing start and T1... I would not change it for a moment!

For they are valid points. Race starts are part of racing, even simracing and take that away you take part of the racing away (not just the fun alone)

[Antonio Wojahn]

Hi,

I haven't been there at Bahrain, but it sounds similar to before. I think it's ironical that Max feels D2 is too much about gaining places in T1. The reason for me being in D2 is that I wanted to enjoy a more relaxed type of racing. D2 is just as hard as D1, imho, but the drivers seemed to be more relaxed to me when I joined. Anyway, that's just an anecdote on the side.

For me, turn one is difficult. I tend to gain places if I get the room for a good start, which makes up for my sometimes bad qualifying. I have tried a number of things to avoid trouble from mid pack.

1) be careful and brake early
2) practise my braking point from a standing start after a practised pace lap, taking the spot I expect to qualify on
3) taking risk and braking as late as possible no matter what.

Obviously, the last one sounds idiotic. But it has taught me something about race starts. It worked really good last season in Watkins Glen, because I was in control of the situation and found a gap. Number 2) is always good, but if you are too fixed on a cold-tires-and-full-fuel point, you tend to be too slow into T1. Number 1) is awful because everyone else will run into you, even if they are careful, too.

So what's the solution, you'll ask? It isn't easy. But I agree with Rik in that you have to be in control of your car. You can't help running into someone who stops dead, you can't avoid carnage if there is a real pile-up. But what you always and always need to be able is to react to what happens. If you're on the edge, you'll screw up. If you are going too slow and not used to your speed, you might end up moving about in unexpected ways.

The right thing to do is to make sure you can control your car even if something sudden happens. That means you have to practise to "slam the brakes", like Bill did. I know exactly what happened here: you're shocked, you overreact and then you're a passenger. It's hard to stay cool and keep yourself from overbraking. So you need to give yourself a margin, but go into T1 at race speed, imho. That doesn't mean that you can disregard what Rik said about the "back pressure" effect in T1. It just means you should take into account that you might be able to go slower than usual in T1.

HTH

Ciao,
Antonio

[JohnW]

Some really good exchange on this thread, and IMO it's a really important one to share our thoughts on, since having a big impact on everyone involved.

Some particular comments really resonate with me, such as;
- A standing start is an exciting part of the race
- Making positions at the start is part of racing we enjoy
- Max's comment about penalties is well made. You stick a tyre off and your next race starts 50s back. But smack someone off in T1 and you get a mark in your license and no material impact for that or future races.

So far these talk about the impact to our enjoyment of the race, but a big factor has to be the effect to others. I have little time to practice or race, and I'm always astonished by the number of laps people can do in practice. It's a great way to enjoy yourself, but it's also a big investment of time. For that time and effort to be wasted by someone losing control in T1 and ending your night (heck, ending your two weeks practice) right there is a BIG responsibility.

From that perspective if I do put trust in my ability to get aggressive into T1, and rely on my ability to pull that off, then I need to take responsibility when and if that goes wrong. There's an argument that responsibility should equate to the loss I cause to someone else. In the grand scheme of things which does the league value more highly - someone's racing fortnight being ruined in T1, or someone else making up one or two extra places off the start?

It's not a black or white question, and balancing aggression and ability is a huge part of racing - our preference will balance somewhere in between. Then the rules and application should reflect those values.