Overtaking ethics

[Steeve Fournier]

I have a question about overtaking ethics/behavior/responsabilities. Maybe it is written somewhere in Legends-league rules, but anyhow, i think its appropriate to have a new post to make it easier for all league participants to read the info.

When overtaking someone, lets say i point my nose on his inside, his car is still 1/2 car lenght in front of me, but he is very aware that i am attempting something cos he can't see me in his Mirror.

At the braking point:
- What's his responsability? Should he use his normal racing line, without any care of leaving me room?
- If i don'T give up at the braking zone, but i make sure to not overshoot the brakes, and keep the Inside more than normal, am i 100% responsible if he close the door on me and an accident happen? In this situation, i mean that i don'T see his car from my cockpit, so i'm not sure if i'm a bit ahead or not.

As for my part, when i am attacked, i tend to make sure i leave room to avoid any incidents, and mostly be able to continue the race without damage. But if the rule say it is not mandatory for me to do that, i may start to defend more in futur races.

Thanks in advance for you precious replys Legends team!

Steeve

[Bret Metcalf]

Good post Steeve...
Looking forward to reading the responses...I will make mine tomorrow

[Rouke]

In short: keep to your lane in the braking zone, be respectful, leave a bit of room.


Or more indepth,

Rule 19.2:

• Drivers may conduct one [1] tactical manoeuvre to dictate the line of the opposing driver while defending a position. This manoeuvre must be conducted with sufficient time and distance so as not to:
  
  a. Initiate any contact with the opposing driver
  b. Force the opposing driver to take evasive action to avoid contact
  c. Impede the immediate forward progress of the opposing driver [force him/her to brake or lift throttle]
  d. Take place within established and/or recognized braking zones

So initially its the responsibility of the driver behind to make a safe pass. But both drivers have to make sure its safe once its in progress.

Within the braking zone we have to stick to our lane, we cannot go from left to right in the braking zone because someone is about to pass us.
This is also a safety rule, because when we all follow this, we can trust each other when the driving is at its closest. we will know the other driver is not going to suddenly move and If he leaves room to pass, his problem.

So there should be no contact, no forcing another driver to do anything, not force them to lift/stop and this can be done when both stick to their own lane.

When overtaking someone, lets say i point my nose on his inside, his car is still 1/2 car lenght in front of me, but he is very aware that i am attempting something cos he can't see me in his Mirror

At the braking point:
- What's his responsability? Should he use his normal racing line, without any care of leaving me room?

Inside the braking zone, when you stick your car next to him. it means he did not secure the turn well enough, he left room, this room can be taken by you. both have to stick to their lanes. Both have to make sure the other driver is not impeded completing the turn sequence.

- If i don'T give up at the braking zone, but i make sure to not overshoot the brakes, and keep the Inside more than normal, am i 100% responsible if he close the door on me and an accident happen? In this situation, i mean that i don'T see his car from my cockpit, so i'm not sure if i'm a bit ahead or not.

In a way it doesn't matter if he can see you or not, he is in the braking zone and should stick to his lane.
Of course not seeing anyone comes with its own problems, and accidents do easily happen, so you should be aware he might not see you and make sure there is room for error.

So theoretically we can both got for the same left turn, you on the inside, me on the outside. enter the turn with the same speeds, you win because its the inside, I lose because I will probably overshoot (i.e. I should have braked earlier because on the outside)

As for my part, when i am attacked, i tend to make sure i leave room to avoid any incidents, and mostly be able to continue the race without damage. But if the rule say it is not mandatory for me to do that, i may start to defend more in futur races.

Leaving room is always good, for both drivers. its a respectful way of driving which we encourage, but its not a rule. if you feel confident enough, make the gab as small as possible, if the other driver feels the same, good luck both.
Racing too close can cause accidents but if both do it..... we have ruled 'racing incident' plenty of times before (no penalties) because both drivers refused to give up.

It is mandatory to stick to your lane and not to impede other drivers in or outside the braking zone. other then that, go for it

So when defending, all you need to do is be in front, choose the inner lane before you enter the braking zone, and when entering the braking zone, its your lane.


We also have the following rules:

• 19.3 Avoidable Contact. In the opinion of the Race Stewards, any driver who initiates avoidable contact which results in the interruption of another competitor's lap time or track position will be subject to a penalty. Should the contact result in damage to or immediate retirement of the other competitor, further penalties may be assessed.
  
  19.4 Unjustifiable Risk. In the opinion of the Chief Steward, any action that represents an unsafe act, an unjustifiable risk or reckless endangerment, will result in the assessment of penalties.

Avoidable contact means you where able to keep it safe, but you didn't. this could be anything really, as long as its your fault on contact.
So me doing a brake-test on you, it would be my fault, because I initiated the incident.

Unjustifiable Risk is exactly as it is stated in the rule, anything reckless or unsafe on your part, is not allowed.

Combine that all, and you know what to do

[Rick Stratton]

...his car is still 1/2 car lenght in front of me, but he is very aware that i am attempting something cos he can't see me in his Mirror.

Classic example of "blind spot" but one that's exaggerated in simracing. You say "...he's very aware..." but this is not always the case and one that, at least from the perspective of a former Legends Race Steward, must be considered on a case by case basis. Things that need to be taken into consideration are:

Mod/Vehicle mirror performance - we all know that some mods do a MUCH better job of "mirroring" than others.

RF2 Virtual mirrors - some drivers use them, some do not. Although we recommend drivers use them for safety reasons, some drivers will and do choose the hardcore approach of "as realistic as possible". No way for us to police or enforce it, so our only caution for drivers who choose not to use the virtuals is that they need to be extra careful.

FOV - Again an issue that comes into play but is not equal among drivers. Some have the advantage of high resolution multiple monitor setups that provide a gloriously wide FOV. I can jealously state that I'm not one of them! And as a single monitor user, our "peripheral vision" is quite limited.

So with all those to take into consideration, my approach has always been: [to be fair, I'm more often getting PASSED than the one doing the PASSING!!]
How long have you been behind the vehicle in question? - if you've been trailing a driver for more than a lap but have been in close proximity, I think you have a much better likelihood of the car ahead know [for sure] that you're there. OTOH, if you've come up behind a slower car quickly, particularly if it happens to be in a more difficult section of track, chances are the driver ahead may not be fully aware of your being there. Consider that your fast closing in difficult sections may be directly related to the amount of effort the slower driver is trying to concentrate, whether it be from a chassis performance problem, or simply from a drivers skill perspective.**

What corner are we talking about? - We all know there are corners that are conducive to passing, others not so much. If you're move is on a corner not typically recognized as a "passers corner" the onus falls much more on YOU to be the careful one.

I think your attitude is a healthy one - erring on the side of caution. Simracing in many ways has it's own special issues to deal with, some of which I've tried to lay out above. But it also has many of the same issues to consider as real world racing. You rarely see corner passing "incidents" at the higher levels of racing [ie. TV] because they are PRO's doing the driving! Watch some of your local amateur racing and you're much more likely to see incidents that reflect online simracing.

**I'm going to share a personal, and embarrassing example of just this kind of thing directly from last week's opener. My speedier days are admittedly behind me these days and at the end of Qualifying at Interlagos I was not particularly surprised to see that I was dead last on the grid. It's been quite some time since I've done a full 60 minute race so my singular purpose was just to finish the race, position didn't matter. So starting from the ass end of the grid I was particularly cautious of T1/T2 as we all know how hairy they can be at any track, but Interlagos in particular. And not surprisingly there were several shunts; at least one before we even entered T1, and a few more into T1/2. My focus was intense, making sure I saw all potential incidents up ahead and taking precautions not to get tangled up in them myself. But ultimately my focus was so intense that exiting T3 [unscathed and much relieved] I completely missed a driver [Chariot] who had snuck up beside me on my right, right into that blind spot you decribed. In reviewing the replay there is no mistaking him in my mirror, but much like a fighter pilot under stress, it's not uncommon for them to completely miss the missile lock warning lights/buzzers going off in the cockpit. I admittedly never saw Chariot [at all] and as I was breathing a huge sigh of relief as a headed down the straight heading into T4, I slowly drifted to my right [back into the normal racing line] and we connected wheels. My race was over, his race was over, and sadly a third driver who was unlucky to get caught up in it was also now out of the race. I take full responsibility for the incident. But I will also say that if I were in Chariot's shoes I'm so entirely sure I would have made the same move. We've both just exited a very intense [chaotic] scene and sliding up into my blind spot, with my also being off the accepted racing line, I feel put Chariot into a tough position. I'm not attempting to lay blame or responsibility on Chariot, I take that on myself. But given the circumstances I think may have chosen [for myself] that perhaps it would be more prudent to back off slightly and let the dust settle a bit first. But that's just my thought on it, and of course hindsight is 20/20.

Personally, my take on it has always been that instead of 1/2 way alongside, I want my nose/front wing AT LEAST past the front wheels of the driver ahead [3/4 alongside if you will] just to be certain. Again, that's a personal call.

[Steeve Fournier]

Thanks guys for taking time to do such clear and precise, i like it that way I get all info i was looking for, even though i already knew most about it to be honest.

Only grey part for me is "hold your line". Just to be clear, holding your line doesn't mean "keep your normal racing line", it means if you are on the outside, stay on the outside, and leave room on the Inside for your opponent.

Great posts guys, thanks a lot!!

Steeve

[Bret Metcalf]

As the above posts from Rouke & Rick…Just a personal addition to what has been said…

IMO...Even though we all have only had 1 championship race together so far, I think it’s fair to say we are still getting to know the styles or tendencies of each driver. Practice races help this of course but sometimes when a new driver arrives on the scene one only discovers his particular style in the race.

Post race I take the time to look at the race replay, scan all the drivers who I am not familiar with and watch them to get an idea as to how they attempt a pass, how they defend, do they give room, how aggressive or forceful are they etc. That helps me a lot and serves as a heads up as to how i go about lining them up for a pass. What it boils down to I suppose is it is advantageous for one to know the tendencies of the driver you are taking on.

Regards,
Bret

[Rouke]

Thanks guys for taking time to do such clear and precise, i like it that way I get all info i was looking for, even though i already knew most about it to be honest.

Only grey part for me is "hold your line". Just to be clear, holding your line doesn't mean "keep your normal racing line", it means if you are on the outside, stay on the outside, and leave room on the Inside for your opponent.

Great posts guys, thanks a lot!!

Steeve

Holding the line as in, 2 cars taking the turn from entry to exit side by side. you cannot change because you either bump into me or cut me off. same for me. so we have to hold inner or outer lines (or middle if the track is wide enough) so its not the racing line in such situations. Its the lane you took upon entry.

If you can move to the other side without me having to lift or brake, it just means you are in front far enough. Its basic racing though, just common sense but we added it into the rules because different people have different ideas about these situations and as a League we need to get the noses pointed in the same direction

[Kat]

*waves* I've not completely disappeared

I consider myself someone who has very good situational awareness so rather than looking at etiquette I thought I'd pop in, say hi, and explain how I race.

In the case of someone trying an overtake, then I hold a simple initial rule. If they pass forward through my mirror and disappear they are alongside. No if's, buts, or second guessing they are alongside.

I'll then decide if the driver is going to make the corner cleanly or likely to overshoot. If they are likely to overshoot then I'll delay my turn-in with the intent of cutting inside as they overshoot. If I think they'll make the corner then I'll try to cramp them for room, mainly at the apex of the corner. The implication here being that it's clear that, at turn-in, there is no indication that they have fully completed a pass, so I'll probably try to squeeze them and limit their track space while still giving them space. If the move is very optimistic then the chances are they are actually still behind and when you give them room you still don't loose the place.

And that's the important thing - leaving space usually only results in you losing a place if the pass was good and clean, if they have insufficient overlap then they won't be able to complete the pass, and if they've overshot you'll re-take the place on exit.

Hope that all makes sense!

[Grant Riddall]

Hi Kat

[cookie]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/mercedes-d ... 4--f1.html


I guess you should not stick your nose in the apex until you complete a pass- ..

[CoolKev]

Hi i am overtaking Race_One with a spaecial move






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL9c6Uf ... e=youtu.be

[Grant Riddall]

That's pretty sick!!!

[Vadim]

Hahahaha Kevin, was ein burnout ausm ersten heraus!

Killer move!

[Bret Metcalf]

Awesome move I thought